MINUTES OF February 17, 2009 REGULAR MEETING of the Town of Rochester PLANNING BOARD, held at the Town Hall, Accord, NY.
Meeting was called to order at 7:00 PM by Chairman Tapper.
PRESENT: ABSENT:
Melvyn I. Tapper, Chairman Anthony Ullman
Shane Ricks, Vice Chair Don Dunn, Alternate
Michael Baden Leon Smith
Robert Rominger Anthony Kawalchuck
Also present were Town Planner, Tim Moot from Clark Patterson Lee.
Pledge to the Flag.
REVISED APPLICATION PRESENTATION
MARIETTA HANLEY & CAROLINE CIRAULO– Site Plan Approval to construct 40’ x 120’ Pavilion, and expand B & B from 5 existing rooms to 8 rooms, Tax Map# 69.4-2-1.320, ‘B’ & ‘F’
District
Ms. Hanley was present on behalf of the application along with her intern, Tanya, from SUNY Ulster. She explained that there was a great room with cathedral ceilings and they closed off that room to make a lower ceiling and that also gave them more space upstairs that they are now using for storage and would like to use for the 3 additional bedrooms being applied for. The Bed & Breakfast season is short and she’s trying to maximize her revenue in that short amount of time. She has hired Medenbach & Eggers to do the tests on the septic system to see if the system can handle the 3 additional bedrooms. If it needs to be improved, they will improve the system. She was asking that this be a contingency of the approval. All of the new rooms would have a private bath.
Mr. Baden noted that this property is split between the Town of Rochester and the Town of Marbletown.
Ms. Hanley noted that the project would be in the Town of Rochester only.
Mr. Baden noted that as part of the review, the Board would send a copy of the application to the Town of Marbletown to notify them as it is within 500’ of a town line.
Chairman Tapper questioned if the pavilion would have bathrooms or a port a potty?
Ms. Hanley noted that they would be following other similar establishments and be using port a potties for the use of the pavilion. They were going to try and only have functions for people that are staying at the Inn. So, if there was going to be something like a small wedding, and there were some additional people coming, there would be the 8 bathrooms in the house and the port a potties. This is what every other B & B does that she knows of.
REVISED APPLICATION PRESENTATION
MARIETTA HANLEY & CAROLINE CIRAULO (cont’d): Site Plan Approval to construct 40’ x 120’ Pavilion, and expand B & B from 5 existing rooms to 8 rooms, Tax Map#69.4-2-1.320, ‘B’ & ‘F’ District
Mr. Ricks noted that when she came in last time she was applying for an enclosed barn to hold weddings and functions in. One of his concerns is live music being played. He experienced this where he lived with a B & B that had weddings. They had a big portable tent and would play live music and it was probably a ¼ to a ½ mile a way and it sounded like it was right in his living room.
Ms. Hanley noted that she is surrounded by 150 acres of a cow farm.
Mr. Ricks noted that Mr. Hornbeck lives right behind the Sparrow Hawk and he’s pretty close. He’s just saying that this is a concern if they are having bands and stuff with amplifiers. Near his house they played till 12am to 1am in the morning. The noise is an issue.
Ms. Hanley noted that she spoke to Randy Hornbeck, Sr. and Randy Hornbeck, Jr. and neither one had a problem.
Chairman Tapper questioned if the applicant was just going for the 3 additional bedrooms, would they still need to be before the Planning Board for Site Plan Approval?
The Secretary answered, yes. It says in the Zoning Code that they can have up to 8 rooms at the discretion of the Planning Board.
Mr. Baden believed that this was actually a Special Use Permit. The Zoning Permit only has Site Plan Approval checked, but he felt that it was both. Bed & Breakfasts are addressed under the Special Use Permit text in Zoning under Chapter 140-36N.
The Secretary asked Mr. Baden to show her where he found that a B & B would need a Special Use Permit so that she knew. The original B & B received Site Plan Approval. In the back of the Zoning Code under the Schedule of Uses, it lists a Bed & Breakfast in a Business District as needing Site Plan Approval.
Mr. Baden noted that this would need to be looked into.
Chairman Tapper questioned if the Secretary had copied the applicant on the correspondence received from the State Office of Parks and Recreation. They had wanted some pictures and additional information.
The Secretary noted that she had, but that was from Ms. Hanley’s previous application for the barn and since they have revised their application, the new one will need to be sent out to them and they’ll have to respond to that one.
Chairman Tapper asked for a motion to circulate Intent for Lead Agency and it will need to be sent to NYS DOT, the UCPB, Town of Marbletown, NYSOPRHP, and UCHD.
REVISED APPLICATION PRESENTATION
MARIETTA HANLEY & CAROLINE CIRAULO (cont’d): Site Plan Approval to construct 40’ x 120’ Pavilion, and expand B & B from 5 existing rooms to 8 rooms, Tax Map#69.4-2-1.320, ‘B’ & ‘F’ District
Mr. Baden motioned for intent to seek Lead Agency. Seconded by Mr. Rominger. No discussion.
Vote:
Tapper, Chairman- Yes Ricks, VC- Yes
Kawalchuk- Absent Smith- Absent
Ullman- Absent Rominger- Yes
Dunn(alt.)- Absent Baden- Yes
The Board discussed typing the action at this point, not sure if it should be typed yet.
The Secretary noted that they typically do typing and Lead Agency together.
Mr. Baden questioned if this would be a Type 1 Action if it were an historic property?
Ms. Hanley noted that it wasn’t an historic building. The Secretary had said it was, but she went online and couldn’t find it. She had all the pages of the historic buildings in Ulster County printed out and it wasn’t there.
The Secretary noted that she had checked the State Register online and it was there. She had checked with the Assessor’s Office and was told it was and also checked with a member of the Town’s Historic Preservation Commission.
The Board asked the Secretary to double check, just to be sure before they typed the action at the next meeting.
Chairman Tapper noted that the EAF had some problems with it. He made a copy of the original EAF from the previous owners and gave it to Ms. Hanley to help her revise her EAF. He believed that #24 was wrong—that it applied more to funding of a project than loans. He didn’t think the Catskill Water Shed Corporation applied here.
The applicant noted that they may be eligible for funding if they had to improve their septic system.
Mr. Moot noted that it may apply if they got a grant.
Mr. Baden noted that #2 refers to Zoning Classification—it should be ‘B’ & ‘F’.
Mr. Ricks noted that #2 & #3 aren’t filled out and need to be.
REVISED APPLICATION PRESENTATION
MARIETTA HANLEY & CAROLINE CIRAULO (cont’d): Site Plan Approval to construct 40’ x 120’ Pavilion, and expand B & B from 5 existing rooms to 8 rooms, Tax Map#69.4-2-1.320, ‘B’ & ‘F’ District
Mr. Baden motioned for the Chairman to be authorized to review the revised EAF and deem it as complete or incomplete. If its complete, the application can be circulated. Seconded by Mr. Rominger. No discussion.
Vote:
Tapper, Chairman- Yes Ricks, VC- Yes
Kawalchuk- Absent Smith- Absent
Ullman- Absent Rominger- Yes
Dunn(alt.)- Absent Baden- Yes
PRE-APPLICATION DISCUSSION
WAYNE & ELIZABETH KELDER– Special Use Permit for grass airstrip, Lower Whitfield Road, Tax Map #68.4-4-16 & 17
Mr. Kelder was present on behalf of his application.
Chairman Tapper questioned the location of this?
Mr. Ricks stated that it was behind Mr. Kelder’s house on Lower Whitfield Road.
Chairman Tapper questioned if Mr. Kelder had a license to fly?
Mr. Kelder responded that he did.
Chairman Tapper questioned if this was directly behind the applicant’s house?
Mr. Kelder noted that it was. The proposed area for the air strip is bounded by all his own land accept for lands of Rider.
Chairman Tapper questioned if Mr. Kelder had received a copy of the General Business Law Section 249 Pertaining to airstrips?
Mr. Kelder had and he read it.
Chairman Tapper noted that according to that procedure, Mr. Kelder would need to go to the Town Board for an approval from them before he could proceed further.
Mr. Moot noted that as in the Dawson application for an airstrip a few months ago, he recommends that the applicant hire an aviation engineer to work with DOT. The Town Board would need to give the applicant authorization to move forward to the DOT.
PRE-APPLICATION DISCUSSION
WAYNE & ELIZABETH KELDER– Special Use Permit for grass airstrip, Lower Whitfield Road, Tax Map #68.4-4-16 & 17
Mr. Kelder noted that it would be a private airfield on private farm land. He wasn’t sure if it fell under the parameters of the General Business Law because of this.
Mr. Baden stated that it is covered under this section of the General Business Law. A landing field is addressed the same as an airport.
Chairman Tapper requested for the Planner, Mr. Moot, to give Mr. Kelder a run down of his first steps.
Mr. Moot noted that the first thing he would do would be to put together a package that addresses the requirements of the DOT and present it to the Town Board. The Town Board would address it and if they see no further issues with it or further information needed, then they would forward the application to the DOT for approval and then the applicant would go to the Planning Board for their review.
Mr. Baden noted that the applicant couldn’t go directly to DOT. The Town Board would do this once they deemed the application complete and authorized it to move forward.
Mr. Ricks suggested that Mr. Kelder contact DOT and get the information that they would require.
Mr. Moot noted that the applicant would need engineered drawings according to DOT standards.
Mr. Kelder noted that he has consulted with an engineer and he’s not even sure what is required of this type of an application.
Chairman Tapper noted that the Planning Board would do either a Special Use Permit or Site Plan Approval, which ever was required in that district. He believed that the specifications required would be from the Commissioner of transportation.
Mr. Ricks believed they’d want to see things like contours and elevations of the properties in the flight path—tree lines—things like that.
Mr. Moot noted that DOT has an Aviation Dept. He suggested that the applicant go online and he would see that its pretty specialized. Not every engineer would be able to do this type of application easily. He would see what information he had on it back at his office from the last application and he’d forward it to the PB Office.
Mr. Baden questioned which property was not owned by Mr. Kelder?
Mr. Kelder circled the property on an aerial map and submitted it to the Secretary . It was a parcel with the Tax Map # 68.4-4-31.1.
Chairman Tapper noted that the proposed flying field spanned two different parcels—should this be on one parcel? It wouldn’t be able to function if the properties were sold to different people?
Mr. Baden thought that was a good question. He wasn’t sure of the answer to that.
PRE-APPLICATION DISCUSSION
WAYNE & ELIZABETH KELDER (cont’d): Special Use Permit for grass airstrip, Lower Whitfield RRoad, Tax Map #68.4-4-16 & 17
Mr. Kelder noted that he wouldn’t get rid of either parcel because he would need that property to have clearance for take-offs and landings.
Chairman Tapper instructed the applicant that the Planner would get some info together for him to the Secretary and Mr. Kelder would need to get himself on the Town Board agenda and follow through the process from there.
DISCUSSION
MOMBACCUS EXCAVATING, Inc.– Discussion on Lead Agency for a Blue Stone Mine, off of AAmanda Drive
Chairman Tapper noted that all Planning Board Members should have received a packet of correspondence between the Planning Board Office and the DEC regarding the Lead Agency Determination.
Mr. Ricks noted that from what he had read, the end result is that even if the Town gets Lead Agency status, they won’t have the funds to do it.
Chairman Tapper noted that those statements were taken out of context by the applicant from a conversation he had with the Town Supervisor. The Chairman asked the Supervisor about the comments he was said to have made and the Supervisor said that he was misquoted. Chairman Tapper spoke to the Supervisor the next day and he said that he was misquoted on certain things and he said that he was going to write a letter in response. As of right now, as far as the Chairman knew, if the PB did get Lead Agency Status, they’d have the support of the Town Board.
The other thing Mr. Ricks had a question on was that he noticed in a few spots in the correspondence, it talked about going by Camp Rov-Tav. They’d have to come up Cherrytown Road to go past that. They’re not going to do that.
Mr. Baden showed Mr. Ricks where the main driveway was on the map. The driveway off of Cherrytown is actually chained shut. The buildings are off of Cherrytown. The Attendees walk in large groups off of Cherrytown.
Chairman Tapper wanted to give the Board a little update since they haven’t had a meeting since December. In December Mr. Rominger had asked that the Chairman call the NYS DEC and ask if they could have a Board member act as a sort of liaison and go to the meetings and the site inspections. The DEC didn’t want to have any of that.
Mr. Baden stated that based on the fact that the Commissioner’s response will probably come before our next meeting—The Commissioner has 20 days once they determine that they have all the information that they need and the last letter that they sent indicated to Mr. Baden that once the PB answered the question of jurisdiction of the roads, they would have all the information they would need. Based on that and based on the Secretary saying that they received that letter on February 9th— March 1st should be their decision deadline.
DISCUSSION
MOMBACCUS EXCAVATING, Inc. (cont’d): Discussion on Lead Agency for a Blue Stone Mine, off of Amanda Drive
Based on his above statement, Mr. Baden motioned to authorize the Chairman, Anthony Ullman, and Mr. Baden, to draft a letter to be sent to the Region 3 NYS DEC in the event that the Planning Board is not granted Lead Agency. The letter would state the areas of environmental concern and secondly to request that an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) be required.
DISCUSSION:
Mr. Ricks noted that he knows that the PB didn’t have a meeting last month, but a lot of these letters went back and forth in the last few weeks. He questioned who was writing them?
The Chairman noted that Mr. Ullman and Mr. Baden have been getting all of the facts together and he’s been reviewing every letter that went out.
Mr. Ricks didn’t have anything against Mr. Ullman or Mr. Baden, it was just that he didn’t want to have 2 people leading and representing the whole Board on all the letters. He just thought that there was no harm in emailing it around so everyone can see them.
Chairman Tapper noted that this was why he sent out all the correspondence in the postal mail- because he wanted to make sure that everyone saw it. He also noted that every letter was also reviewed by the Town Attorney. He felt that any future letters could be sent to members though.
Mr. Baden noted that the letter writing was voted on and authorized at the December meeting, which is why he was making this new motion.
Mr. Ricks thought that was only to authorize one letter to be sent.
Chairman Tapper noted that Mr. Ullman, Mr. Baden and he were going to apply for the Lead Agency status and what ever needed to be done to follow up on that would be done.
Mr. Baden felt that they should second the motion- they were starting a conversation in the middle of a motion.
Chairman Tapper wanted to have discussion before it went further.
Mr. Ricks agreed with the Chairman about Mr. Ullman, Mr. Baden, and the Chairman following through with the correspondence, but if like Mr. Baden said, now if it comes back and its denied or approved- he felt that the whole Board should just be able to see it before it goes out.
Mr. Baden agreed and added to his motion that all letters be circulated to the entire Board before mailing them out.
Chairman Tapper noted that once an application goes to the DEC, the Planning Board could hold hearings on their own simultaneously before Lead Agency is even established. If the Board does not get Lead Agency Status that even if they have to hold a special hearing, immediately after receiving
DISCUSSION
MOMBACCUS EXCAVATING, Inc. (cont’d): Discussion on Lead Agency for a Blue Stone Mine, off of Amanda Drive
notification that the Town is not Lead Agency that the Planning Board advertises for a Public Hearing and gets anyone who wants to voice concerns—
Mr. Ricks questioned if they even had an application in front of the Board yet?
Chairman Tapper noted that it was in the Town Code.
Mr. Baden read it in the Code – 140-36I. “
(c) In addition, upon receipt of a notice from the NYSDEC of an application for a permit to mine in excess of 1,000 tons per year, such notice shall be referred to the Town Planning Board who shall conduct public hearing(s), concurrent with or separate from its special permit proceedings, to make determinations and recommendations to the NYSDEC for incorporation in such mining permit with regard to:
[1] Setbacks from property lines and road rights-of-way;
[2] Barriers designed to restrict access;
[3] Dust control;
[4] Hours of operation; and
[5] Whether mining is prohibited by zoning at the location.
(d) Except for Subsection I(2)(c)[5] immediately above, the NYSDEC can accept or reject the Planning Board’s determinations.
Mr. Ricks noted that the topics allowed to be addressed didn’t include traffic and the roads.
Mr. Baden agreed and stated that once Lead Agency is established, that because the Planning Board is an involved agency, they can make comments to the DEC.
Mr. Ricks questioned if at the hearing could they bring up traffic concerns?
Chairman Tapper assumed that anything could be brought up. He didn’t think it needed to be limited to anything.
Mr. Baden wasn’t sure. He thought that the hearing could only allow those 5 topics listed. But as an involved agency, the Planning Board would be able to bring up anything they wanted.
Chairman Tapper’s thought was that if they didn’t get Lead Agency that they could hold a special meeting to get public comment about it.
Mr. Baden felt that the Board could do both- write the letter and have the hearing. He really thought that only those 5 topics covered under the Town Law could be addressed.
Mr. Ricks questioned who would be notified for the Public Hearing? Just the bounding owners around the mine, or everyone on the truck route?
Chairman Tapper would just advertise it as a Public Hearing- advertise in the paper and posting it on the website and at the Town Hall.
Mr. Baden re-stated his motion:
Mr. Baden motioned to authorize the Chairman, Anthony Ullman, and Mr. Baden, to draft a letter to be sent to the Region 3 NYS DEC in the event that the Planning Board is not granted Lead Agency. The letter would state the areas of environmental concern and secondly to request that an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) be required. The draft letter would be circulated among the Planning Board members for comment.
Mr. Ricks wanted to add “and approved by a majority of the members.” To the end of Mr. Baden’s motion. He noted that Mr. Ullman’s not even at the meeting tonight and he’s included in the motion.
Mr. Baden only included him by name because he was involved in the previous letters.
Chairman Tapper questioned if there was anything in the correspondence that went out to the DEC that Mr. Ricks didn’t like or disagreed with?
Mr. Ricks had a couple of questions that got answered tonight, but he just felt that there were 7 people on the Board, but only 3 were involved.
Chairman Tapper restated that those 3 members were authorized to do that. Every letter that was written was in response to correspondence received regarding the Lead Agency dispute. The Chairman didn’t want anyone to feel left out—he makes a point of trying to do everything in the open.
The Secretary noted that there was no meeting in January, if there was one everyone would have seen the letters in their files.
Mr. Rominger seconded the motion.
More Discussion:
Chairman Tapper still preferred his idea of having a Public Hearing. The DEC already has the Town’s areas of concern. He questioned if the DEC always requested an EIS?
DISCUSSION
MOMBACCUS EXCAVATING, Inc. (cont’d): Discussion on Lead Agency for a Blue Stone Mine, off of Amanda Drive
Mr. Moot stated that they didn’t always request an EIS.
Mr. Baden was concerned that everything so far has been addressed on a very broad level. They haven’t gotten into any extreme detail. There are other areas that were in the EAF—to start with the DEC is still not listing this as a complete application. Once Lead Agency is established, the DEC will now need to submit to the Board a completed application and once they see that they can now make their determination within 20 days which could be before the Board’s next meeting. That’s why he is making this motion. Back in December they thought it was proactive to start drafting ahead of time and that is what he is proposing now. The Board has a very short window once Lead Agency is determined to respond back.
Chairman Tapper still felt it could be accomplished by the Public Hearing and forwarding the information to the DEC.
Mr. Baden felt that a separate motion could be made to have a hearing, but he thought that under Town Law, the hearing could only pertain to those 5 items.
Mr. Baden motioned to authorize the Chairman, Anthony Ullman, and Mr. Baden, to draft a letter to be sent to the Region 3 NYS DEC in the event that the Planning Board is not granted Lead Agency. The letter would state the areas of environmental concern and secondly to request that an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) be required. The draft letter would be circulated among the Planning Board members for comment and approved by a majority of the members.
Vote:
Tapper, Chairman- No Ricks, VC- Yes
Kawalchuk- Absent Smith- Absent
Ullman- Absent Rominger- Yes
Dunn(alt.)- Absent Baden- Yes
Mr. Baden believed that it wasn’t a majority, so the motion didn’t carry.
The Secretary would check with the Town Attorney in the morning if it was a majority of the people present, or the whole Board.
Mr. Baden felt that if they find out prior to the next meeting that they are not Lead Agency that they should call a special meeting to discuss this because there is such a short window of time. His idea of this motion and the letter writing was to forego a special meeting.
DISCUSSION
10P5C- Subdivision Approval for 2 lots, Project 32 Road, Tax Map # 76.4-3-15.115
Chairman Tapper noted that the applicant submitted an archeological study and the Board had to hear back from the OPRHP until they could act on this.
ACTION ON MINUTES
Chairman Tapper motioned to accept the December 16, 2008 minutes with the following spelling corrections:
“Stated” on “Slough” on Page 3. Mr. Ricks seconded the motion. No discussion.
Tapper, Chairman- Yes Ricks, VC- Yes
Kawalchuk- Absent Smith- Absent
Ullman- Absent Rominger- Yes
Dunn(alt.)- Absent Baden- Yes
OTHER MATTERS
Two members were present from the Town’s Environmental Conservation Commission (ECC). Kristin Marcell and Laura Finestone.
Chairman Tapper noted that the Town Board was in support of getting the Planning Board to utilize the ECC. The Chairman apologized because he didn’t know the members of the ECC and he read today that Michael Callan is the Chairman of that Board and this request to meet should have probably gone through him. Did he know that they were at this meeting?
Ms. Marcell stated that he did know. They had talked about this at their last meeting.
Mr. Baden stated that Kristin is the Vice Chair.
The Chairman knew this, but it should have gone through the Chairman. He stated that this Board is a resource for the Board to utilize on applications.
Ms. Marcell was very pleased to be invited and this was a role that the ECC plays in many towns. Several members of the ECC have professional backgrounds in this area and if the Planning Board would want it, they’d love to serve as a resource with recommendations.
Mr. Ricks didn’t think this would be a legal type of referral.
Chairman Tapper question if they had an inventory of places that were environmentally sensitive in the town.
Ms. Marcell noted that there is a Natural Resource inventory that was done by Chazen a couple of years ago. The ECC could serve as the body that would look at that.
Mr. Baden questioned if they would be commenting during Public Hearings?
The Secretary noted that she could email applications to the ECC for them to discuss at their meetings. The ECC met the 2nd Thursday of the month and the PB met the 3rd Tuesday, so the time frames should work out.
Ms. Marcell questioned confidentiality of applications.
The Secretary noted that all applications are of Public Record. She thought it would be a suggestion if the ECC Members just kept the applications forwarded to the ECC among Board Members for their review and comment.
OTHER MATTERS
The Chairman questioned if seeking to be Lead Agency was a type of litigation- should it have been discussed in a closed session? He had spoken to the Town Attorney objecting to the applicant’s attorney corresponding to the DEC disputing the Town’s positions on seeking Lead Agency. He felt that this was something between the Town and the DEC.
Mr. Baden believed that right now its part of the permit process and not litigation yet. He doesn’t feel this discussion has grounds for Executive Session. They don’t have an application yet, but they do have a request from the DEC.
ADJOURNMENT
Mr. Baden motioned to adjourn, seconded by Chairman Tapper. No discussion. All members present in favor.
As there was no further business, at 7:45, Chairman Tapper adjourned the meeting.
Respectfully submitted,
Rebecca Paddock Stange, Secretary