Planning Board Chairman

                                                                                                                            Town of Rochester

 

The Chairperson advised the applicant that this was their Public Hearing and their time to talk to the Board and explain their situation. When they were finished the Board would ask questions and then it would be opened to the public. She also asked that Highway Superintendent Wayne Kelder would make some comments on the situation.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen read a statement that he prepared on this date. He passed them around to the Board members. He noted that there are 2 main questions. 1 is that the building permit was denied because of a lack of a driveway permit. Wayne Kelder, per his letter did not issue a driveway permit because he doesn’t have jurisdiction to issue such a permit because the driveway does not enter a town road directly. In conversation, Wayne Kelder had indicated that Jon Van Wagenen’s driveway was just an extension of the private section of Cliff Road and the driveway cut already existed between the transition of the Town Maintianed Cliff Road and the private road. Hence a driveway permit is not needed and the building inspector is in order to deny Jon Van Wagenen a building permit on that basis. The other question in regard to the condition of Cliff Road which has

ZBA Minutes                                                                                             Page3

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

to be addressed for 280a of Town Law. Cliff Road is not a great road and there is no question that it needs to be updated. The question is that needs to be answered is if it is acceptable to emergency vehicles because that is the basis of the 280a Town Law. They want to make sure that if someone builds a house that it can adequately be serviced by emergency vehicles. Based on Dennis Van Wagenen’s review, it is suitable to emergency vehicles. Just to clarify his qualification on that—he has been a member of the Lamontville Fire Dept. for over 40 years and the Lomontville Fire Commissioner for over 30 years. And he is currently the Chairman for more than 20 years, plus he is a licensed professional engineer in the State of NY. Since the Planning Board meeting he has contacted the Accord Fire Chief and he indicated verbally that Cliff Road is suitable for emergency vehicles. He also asked the Lomontville Fire Chief, Lou Cardinele to also take a look and he says that Cliff Road and Jon Van Wagenen’s driveway is suitable for emergency vehicles. He submitted this statement from Lou Cardinale to the Board. The road should be upgraded and he is supportive of that either by the Town helping out as far as supporting a bond or if the Town Highway Dept. would take the road over as it is and slowly improve the condition. He has a USGS Map from 1901 that shows that road going straight through to the Town of Marbletown and it existed back then. It was definitely a road and not a wood road. During the turn of the Century or in the 1940’s it was probably an active quarry and it died off, so there wasn’t a need for a road at that point and he thinks it fell into not being used and there was no need for the Town to maintain it any further than it does right now.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk questioned if you could get through that road?

 

Dennis Van Wagenen replied that you could, but when you get over to the Town of Marbletown side it is blocked because it is privately owned. You can physically drive through, but its blocked. There is only one house on the Marbletown side of this road and he believed that this home was built not too long ago.

 

Chairperson Knudsen questioned Jon Van Wagenen when he purchased this property?

 

Jon Van Wagenen responded that it was about 2 years ago in January of 2006. He’s paid taxes now for 2 years.

 

Chairperson Knudsen questioned if he purchased it through a realtor?

 

Jon Van Wagenen bought if from his buddy who was a real estate agent.

 

Chairperson Knudsen further questioned if Jon Van Wagenen was aware of the situation or the letter in question from the Highway Superintendent? There is a letter in the Planning Board office from Wayne Kelder, Highway Superintendent from June of 2005 stating that this road should first be improved prior to any other houses going on it. She then read this letter into the record. This was something that could have been done prior to purchasing the property. Did he do any research on the property?

ZBA Minutes                                                                                             Page4

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

Jon Van Wagenen never read that letter but was told by John Mikesh and Dylan Taft (the previous owners) that they had tried to do a subdivision and they couldn’t.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that Jon Van Wagenen’s intent was not to subdivide it, but to build a single family dwelling. Dennis Van Wagenen didn’t foresee a problem because it was an existing lot. He could understand that if there was a subdivision it would be a problem.

 

Chairperson Knudsen questioned if the applicant was aware that there could be problems with the road?

Jon Van Wagenen does excavating and drove up it and thought it was fine.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk questioned if there were people living on that road? Were they having trouble getting up it?

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that there were 12 to 14 houses on that road. It wasn’t easy getting in and out, but they accept it and it should really be upgraded. The Town should play a bigger part in that.

 

Mr. Kingston questioned who plowed it in the winter time?

 

A member of the audience spoke out of turn and the Chairperson instructed them that there would be a portion of the meeting dedicated to public input, but this was not the time.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen believed that there were a couple people that shared in plowing the road.

 

Mr. Kingston questioned who paid for their services?

 

Jon Van Wagenen noted that he gets his driveway paid by his cousin and he pays him.

 

Mr. Kingston was referring to the road in general.

 

Jon Van Wagenen responded that it was the people that lived up there that did it themselves.

 

Mr. Kingston wanted to know if the road was always free of snow and icy conditions so that emergency vehicles could get up there?

 

Jon Van Wagenen believed that there was an emergency vehicle up there in the snow that he remembers. His cousin was on the Ambulance Squad in Accord and said it was okay. His cousins name was Justin Van Wagenen.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk wanted to know if the fire dept said that they could get in?

 

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 5

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that they indicated that it wasn’t a problem. Bill Ferrel of the fire Dept. couldn’t understand why they couldn’t get a building permit.

 

Mr. Hudson noted that Jon Van Wagenen noted that his cousin was up there. Was that in the summer months or the winter months?

 

Jon Van Wagenen believed that there was snow on the ground.

 

Mr. Hudson noted that he’s been up there and he realized that the fire company goes up that road too, but he felt that in the winter months, unless that road was clear and been plowed that it would be very hard for an emergency vehicle, especially an ambulance to get up there at his location. If it was really bad it would be impossible.

 

Jon Van Wagenen noted that when it snows people plow it, so when they always go up there its plowed.

 

Mr. Kingston wondered what type of an agreement this was? Did all the people pool their resources together and do the whole road, or did they just maintain in front of their own properties?

 

Jon Van Wagenen stated that it definitely wasn’t a contract type of a thing. People have their own equipment and take it upon themselves to do the work. He has a vehicle with a plow and if he stayed up there he’d be doing the same.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that there are a few people that do it and probably a majority of them don’t. there is no agreement or contractual type of a thing.

 

Mr. Kingston  noted that if the person doing it could do it no longer, they’d have to scramble to find someone else?

 

Dennis Van Wagenen agreed.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy questioned if a majority of these people had to come and go to a job each day?

 

Dennis Van Wagenen believed so.

 

Chairperson Knudsen requested for Highway Superintendent, Wayne Kelder to address the Board and explain the conditions of Cliff Road and if there is an agreement with regard to plowing?

 

Mr. Kelder noted that the Town does not own any part of that road nor do they provide any maintenance for any private road. They do not maintain it. He wanted to address the point where he was involved. He is the Town’s

ZBA Minutes                                                                                    Page 6

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

representative to enforce Zoning Laws that address roads. The letter that he sent in 2005 to Mr. Pisani, he was asked to go to the road and to see if it would support more development. He looked at the road at that time and it wasn’t up to Town Private Road Specs. In 2005 he wrote the letter that the Board just addressed. Then when Dennis Van Wagenen and Jon Van Wagenen wrote to him for a driveway permit, Mr. Kelder’s letter in response noted that its not the responsibility of the Highway Superintendent to give driveway permits that go on Private roads. Permit of those people where the Town becomes involved is for anything on the Town owned portion of Cliff Road, they don’t get involved for driveway permits for the private portion. So, his letter back, was that he doesn’t give driveway permits for private roads. That was what his involvement has been. The part of his looking into it is to see if they can be accommodated, but that’s not his responsibility, the fire dept. looks and determines if they can come in and out and the ambulance makes that determination.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy questioned Mr. Kelder. Since he wrote that letter in 2005, did he know if any other houses had gone up in there?

 

To Mr. Kelder’s knowledge there has not been any new structures, but he’s not sure if there was any remodeling done.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy questioned if they were doing remodeling and taking trucks in bringing construction material. How were they getting them in there.

 

Mr. Kelder wasn’t aware.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy noted that if they have then that road is passable to some degree for bigger equipment was her question. She didn’t know this, and she wasn’t a driver, she’d never driven a fire truck and she’s never driven an 18 wheeler, but if you could get one of them up there, couldn’t an ambulance and a fire truck get in there?

 

Mr. Kelder noted that you have to remember that there are things in the Highway Dept. that are judgement calls, but when he is asked to look at a road to see if it makes specifications, there are certain qualifications and tools that are spelled out that he has to follow.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy understood that, but in his judgment at this time if a construction truck could get in there, could a fire truck get in there?

 

Mr. Kelder didn’t think that this was something for him to answer. He was under the capacity of Highway Superintendent enforcing the laws that are on the books and if the Board so chooses to change those laws, that is what he’d have to enforce.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk wanted to clarify. These houses were there? Since the houses were built, they put on additions?

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 7

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

If they put on additions, they’d have to get permits? How did they get permits if the road is so bad?

 

Chairperson Knudsen noted that this is something that would have to be looked into.

 

The Secretary noted that Open Development is only for new residences, it isn’t for existing dwellings.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that 280-a has been on the books since 1951 or 52 he believed.

 

The Secretary didn’t know of the year, but noted that the Town had just started enforcing in the 90’s. That’s where you get all the pre-existing houses that are in.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy clarified that it was on the books, but wasn’t enforced.

 

The Secretary stated that the Town wasn’t aware of the law until it was brought to their attention in the 1990’s. She didn’t think that any Town’s in the area were aware of it.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy thought that was a little arbitrary and capricious to enforce it on one person.

 

The Secretary noted that it has been used on many applicants.

 

Mr. Kingston wanted to clarify a little difference between construction vehicles and emergency vehicles. Construction vehicles usually have high clearances so they can go just about anywhere they have to. The conditions aren’t the same as that of a fire truck or ambulance.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk noted that Dennis Van Wagenen had written letters here saying that they could get in.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that they brought a 28 ton excavator up there a year ago and it was in the winter, early spring and didn’t have a problem with it.

 

Mr. Kingston noted that the last time they had a meeting on this, in addition to the existing homes and the land owned by Jon Van Wagenen, he questioned how many undeveloped parcels were on that road?

 

Dennis Van Wagenen had the tax map and brought it out.

 

The Board viewed the map.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that there were quite a few vacant parcels. Dennis Van Wagenen noted that he

Had a 25’ right-of-way off of Cliff Road.

 

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 8

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

Mr. Kingston was curious about the potential development on that road because if there was a problem now, and they allowed this home to go through, it would seem like they’d be opening a can of worms. There’s a lot of land up there.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that Marbletown came aware of this law maybe a little after the Town of Rochester, but they passed a law making Open Development areas becaue there is a lot of land that are existing lots that have right-of-ways where they don’t’ border right on to a public road. They passed a law that designated all of those types of lots in the town that they would be considered an Open Development Area. Then the decision would be made if the driveway was suitable for emergency vehicles and the building inspector actually makes that decision. That was done early this year or late last year.

 

The Secretary noted that our building dept. was aware of this and had requested the Town Board to look into this several times, but nothing was ever done.

 

Chairperson Knudsen opened the Public Hearing.

 

Frank Striano was recognized to speak. He felt that he could shed a little light on the Board’s questions as he has lived on the road for over 20 years. Regarding existing houses, that particular “subdivision” was done before there were any zoning ordinances in the Town. Mr. Terwilliger sat down and drew lines with his pencil and lots were established, there was no one to say what needed to be done at that time. They were bought mostly as vacation spots over the years. Trailers were put in. Dennis Van Wagenen mentioned that there might be 12 residences on the road. Those 12 residences were established before zoning. Since then, they’ve only allowed people to replace existing dwellings. If you had an established residence, you were able to get a building permit—to upgrade something like a trailer to a house. That’s how the hosues have been developed and now there are so many people living up there full time. The road has been a contention for everyone that has lived up there for a long time. No one can get anything done as far as the Town taking the road over. Mr. Striano and another person have been plowing the road for the last 5-7 years. If any Board members are familiar with the road its over a mile long. Before he can go to work in the morning, he has to go out and plow. He has an employee that he pays to help him sand the road before they can even go and do their days work. He is not compensated by anyone. No one is trying to keep this gentleman from building a house—that’s the last thing anyone wants to do, but this is putting a spotlight on a bad situation that they have. To allow it to become worse is purely a safety issue. He has been on that hill in the winter throwing sand out of the back of a truck and have had to literally jump for his life because someone has been coming down the hill and couldn’t stop. It is going to get worse if there are anymore cars. It has become worse over the years with people living there full time now. Its not getting any better. The last rain washed away what he did 2 weeks ago. He trucks the material in and puts the material down. He can’t maintain the entire road, he has done what he can and has helped his neighbors when they ask. Something needs to happen. The idea with this Open Development, is because we have so many of these roads in the Town. This isn’t the first one you’re going to come across and it isn’t right to press one person to the point that no one else is being held to, but its not that he’s the only one being held to it.

 

ZBA Minutes                                                                                    Page 9

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

That law has been enforced for the last 4 or 5 years. He wasn’t sure of the exact amount of time. Since they realized there was a major problem. There is a checklist within the Town for Open Development. It’s a very cut and dry checklist and one of the items on that checklist, which he wasn’t sure if anyone on the Board had it, is that the road be up to private road specs to some degree. Now, emergency vehicles were mentioned. Yes, you could take a fire truck up there right now, you could drive up to anyone of his neighbors, but come November, December, January, February, March and April- If someone is coming up the hill and the width of the road is reduced even further because of snow, if the person coming down doesn’t give up the right of way—there are many places where there isn’t room for 2 cars to pass each other, hence someone sliding – there is trouble. He has been out there numourous times to pull people off of his stone wall, to help people out—sometimes 4 cars at a time. It’s a safety issue—nothing else and it has to be addressed. He doesn’t know what the answer is, but he does know to allow more building on this road without something happening is not the way to go.

 

Chairperson Knudsen questioned Mr. Striano if  the  neighbors have gotten together to talk about a Road Maintenance Agreement (RMA)?

 

Mr. Striano noted that they have had some meetings, but things are hard and when money is an issue some people are able to do things that other people aren’t and everyone understands that, so they try and get money together for sand, but if someone doesn’t have it, no one says, we’re not going to sand for you. They do what they have to. If Mr. Striano gets money for it, he does, if he doesn’t – there has never been any RMA or agreement of any kind, because these parcels were developed before this kind of thing was ever an issue, so now they are stuck and pretty much looking for a way out. He encouraged the Board members to look at the road to be able to appreciate the situation . It would help for them to understand the situation better. He has a nice home and there are a lot of nice homes up there and they all go to work everyday, and he’s sure Mr. Van Wagenen could go to work every day also, and he’s not the straw that’s going to break the camel’s back—you see vacant properties there and when this parcel went in front of the Planning Board originally when it got denied there was another parcel across the road that they went for these building permits at the same time and it wasn’t just one denial, they both got denied. At that point those 2 owners should have really gotten together and pooled their resources if they wanted to do something with their property. That was when they found out that they wouldn’t be able to get building permits and then they sold it.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk noted that there had to be a solution.

 

Mr. Hudson questioned who did the original subdivision?

 

Mr. Striano answered “Harold Terwilliger”.

 

Mr. Hudson was aware of other subdivisions done by this person. He generally had Massaw do them.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen thought that Messinger and Jackson did it.

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 10

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

William Farrell was recognized to speak. He explained that he was the District Chief of the Accord Fire Dept. he noted that he did speak to Dennis Van Wagenen and if Mr. Van Wagenen remembered correctly he told him that the only time they had a fire there and they went back through the records today—it was a brush fire and they did replace 2 axles on the equipment that they used. It is not accessible to emergency apparatus vehicles. For brush trucks, four wheel drive pickup emergency vehicles, okay—but for the equipment they have today—no way. Its impossible. They have a 10 wheeler that they haul water on because half the sites around here they have no water on. There is no water up there to fight fire. If the road was widened and improved, yes. But right now as it is today it is impossible. He’s not going to tear up his equipment that the Town just spent $400,000 for a ladder truck to get up in there. He had a heck of a time trying to get up there with his four wheel drive today. It definitely needs work. He feels sorry for them that they can’t get there permit, but he took a ride up there today all the way to the other end. With the trucks they had 5 years ago he would say okay, but not with the ones they have today. Back then they had four wheel drive, old Chevy’s that had the clearance. Now everything is lower, longer, wider, heavier—the trucks they had years ago only pumped 400 gallons a minute and 750 of water. Today they are 1,000 gallons a minute and 1250 of water.

 

Mr. Hudson wanted to ask Mr. Farrell a question. Mr. Hudson is a member of the Kerhonkson/Accord Ambulance squad and noted that they work together with the fire dept. Did Mr. Farrel think that the new ‘rig’ that the Ambulance squad has could make it up there?

 

Mr. Farrell thought that on a dry clear day like today yes, but in the winter time—no way.

 

Mr. Hudson was up there and checked it out and he felt the same way.

 

Mr. Farrell continued that about a year ago the Fire Advisory Board dropped a bill in front of the Town for driveways about permits on driveways and private roads about widening them and making them more accessible. He wasn’t sure if the Town ever did anything about it. That would solve a lot of these problems.

 

Chairperson Knudsen noted that that must have gone to the Town Board, the ZBA wouldn’t get anything like that. That’s not within the ZBA’s jurisdiction. She asked Mr. Farrell if he could supply a copy for the ZBA.

 

Tavi Cilenti was recognized to speak and noted that he doesn’t live on Cliff Road, but lives where Cliff Road comes on to Upper Whitfield and he had a lot of friends that live on Cliff Road. He noted that 2 years ago in the winter one of his friends lives up past the Striano’s on Cliff Road. They had to leave one car on one side of the washed out road and the other family car on the other side of the washed out road, so that they could stop there in the morning and trek across the mud and get in their second car to drive down to the bottom of the hill. He has a Hummer, so sometimes he would drive them up the hill. He won’t visit his friends on the top of that hill with his Durango. He uses his wife’s diesel truck or his Hummer because that road will definitely destroy your car. In the summer he came down in his jeep and hit a pot hole and blew his tire out. The only thing that he is testifying to here is that this road is in bad shape. If the Board took a ride up there in the winter time, he’s

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 11

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

afraid to. There are times when neighbors up there would walk down it instead drive. Not 2 weeks ago they were driving somewhere and he said to his wife—‘this is almost as bad as Cliff Road’—now that is terrible when that’s your standard for bad roads and that’s just the truth. He’s just talking as a neighbor who drives up and down that road occasionally. He’s afraid to take his cars up there and he urged the Board members to take a ride up there to see what he was talking about. It was pretty nice up there now, but it was dry and clear. And when they had that brush fire on this applicant’s property, he went up to help them get some water and they were having a very difficult time because the road was blocked by trucks trying to help. Those are the kinds of issues. If there are specs that need to be followed, they should be followed. His road is maintained by the Highway Superintendent and its excellent.

 

Mrs. Diana Cilenti was recognized to speak and noted that there are spots on that road that are so narrow and there is so much slippage even in normal weather that she and her friends will no long ride their horses on that road anymore. There is no place to get off of the road if another car comes down.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk felt that the Town should do something about this if its that bad.

 

Board members noted that the problem is that it’s a private road and owned by tax payers, not the Town.

 

Mr. Kelder noted that there is a procedure that the Town has in place where private roads can be taken over. One of the pre- requisites is that before they can – the road needs to be brought up to specs and it can be extensive. You can go to the property owners and get (he believed) it was 2/3 or ¾ or the property owners if they agree to float a bond for the Town it can be put on their tax rolls and the owners are the ones that will pay for it. The Town just does it because they are a large entity and they have the ability to charge the people for it. He’s not sure exactly how the law works, but he didn’t think you could exclude anyone. What it would be would be the entire length and the 51% or 2/3 of people or whoever agrees would pay for it.

 

Mr. Hudson questioned what the length of the road was.

 

Mr. Kelder noted that it’s the length from where the Town stops maintaining it (and it becomes the dirt road)  presently to where there is a sign suggesting that you don’t go any further—and he wasn’t sure if that was still part of the private right-of-way or if it was private property, but anyhow it was in the Town of Marbletown. He wasn’t sure of the exact measurement, but believed it to be about 5,100 feet of private road in the Town of Rochester.

 

Mr. Striano noted that at the end of the road where the shale bank used to be a number of years ago, they mined all the shale out of there and when they split up the properties they sold that, because that’s where the road used to go out—the Marbletown exit. So years ago—once in a while they’d go out that way, but it was pretty much a path. The person that bought it has now put it as a private drive and he owns that piece of property and you can’t drive there anymore. He put up a nasty sign to keep everyone out. It would be great for all of the

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 12

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

people at the top of the hill to be able to use that exit, but unless there is a right-of-way in their deeds, he has a right to say that this is his private driveway and no one can use it. This is what has happened to their access to the other end.

 

Mr. Kelder noted that there is a large area up there that will be deer country if something isn’t done because the road will not render itself the way it is now for that development. It just happens that the Van Wagenens are the most recent ones to apply that haven’t been allowed to continue.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk questioned if the road was breaking down more and more?

 

Mr. Kelder noted that he thought that from the time that he was there in the spring and now that it has been improved, but he still has to go by the Town law. If the Town Law says 10’, he can’t go and say okay—that’s 6’ and pass it. He has that responsibility to the people of the Town that he will uphold their law. And right now it says ‘Private Roads shall be…’ , so that’s where it is today and he himself can’t change that.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk noted that the people weren’t willing to do it.

 

Mr. Striano noted that years ago they went to the Town Board and this was before Open Development. The problem is that when you start floating a bond, you’re talking about a road that covers over a mile and you’re not talking about 50’ in front of your house, your talking a lot of road that a small amount of people would have to pay for. Its not like you are in a development on a street with 50 houses and everyone puts in $100.00 and the road gets taken care of. We’re talking about floating a bond that’s going to put an extra tax on people that some of them can’t pay their taxes now, so they don’t want it. Its not that they don’t want the road fixed, but its just not something that they can do. If its something that goes on your taxes, it will be there for a long time—even if you went to sell it in 10-20 years it could still be increased because of that bond. Its an added burden should you decide to keep or sell your property. If it were a smaller burden, he didn’t think the people would be so reluctant.

 

Mr. Hudson questioned if just the 12 home owners mentioned would be responsible?

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that if that were to happen it would apply to every piece of land that has a right-of-way over Cliff Road, not just the houses that are there now. It would be assessed to every property, so the burden wouldn’t be as big as you’d think.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk would think that if it was as bad as the people were saying, that they wouldn’t’ have a choice but to do this to fix the road.

 

Chairperson Knudsen questioned Mr. Kelder if he had an approximation of cost to bring this up to specs?

 

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 13

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

Mr. Kelder noted that what they did in the past is that first off the Highway Dept. doesn’t get involved because this is a private road, they always recommend that they go to private contractors. So what they do is that the private contractor will come in and give a bid of an estimate to the people and then the people would know when they signed how much it would cost to post the bond. They did Sage’s Loop and it was somewhere around $140,000 and he doesn’t know what this would cost. Usually they recommend that when the people are interested that they go out and contact the other land owners to see if there are enough people interested to do it. Then the next step would be to get an estimate and then after that they’d move forward.

 

Someone questioned if it would be asphalted?

 

Mr. Kelder noted that the Town has certain specs before they would take the road over and present specs do call for double seal, which is oil and chip. Most of the time they find its cheaper to black top it, but it does have to be surfaced. A private road can be gravel.

 

Lorna Massie questioned when the road was officially abandoned?

 

Mr. Kingston wanted to know what the road was way back when Terwilliger owned it? Was it a public road or a private road?

 

Mr. Kelder noted that as far as he knew that it had never been a Town owned or maintained road.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy wanted to know the procedure for abandoning a Town road.   

 

Mr. Kelder explained that there is a stipulation in the Town Highway Law that if in the past 10 years no one asked you to do anything to the road, the Town could abandon it. They have done that with Rock Hill Road. It was abandoned because no one ever asked the Town to do any work to it. It reverted back to the property owners.

 

Mrs. Haugen De Puy was trying to understand this. Once a road was a Town road, if they never got a call on that road from any person in the Town that said, ‘ I have a pot hole that needed to be filled’, the Town doesn’t automatically go and plow and maintain it?

 

Mr. Kelder noted that if the Town stopped maintaining it because maybe there was no one living on it, and no one calls and says they need it fixed, they obviously don’t want any work on it. So, it can be abandoned.

 

Mr. Hudson noted that he knew and Mr. Kelder knew that Water Falls Road was maintained for years and maintained by the Town and other Highway Superintendents. Part of that road is still a Town Road. He questioned why they abandoned the upper part?

 

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 14

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

Mr. Kelder answered that if three criteria were met: 1. if the property owners all adjoining that particular road agree that they don’t want the Town to maintain it anymore. 2. If the Highway Superintendent determines that it’s a certain amount of property that could be abandoned and given back to the property owner—

 

Mr. Hudson understood that he was getting off track here, but he talked about the road that he was on that was maintained by the Town now, but when he moved there in 1962 it was not maintained at all, unless he came up in the winter and it was plowed. Was that before they changed the laws that the road could be abandoned if it wasn’t maintained?

 

Mr. Kelder could only go back to 1988 when he came in. He didn’t know what happened back then.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk noted that they needed to see what kind of relief the ZBA could give these people—what did they have 12 acres of land? What were they supposed to do with it?

 

Chairperson Knudsen stated that the ZBA was not here to deal with that. The ZBA was here to determine whether or not the Building Inspector correctly made a determination. They weren’t here to vary the law at this point. They can in their determination, but they were here to have a case on the determination of the Building Inspector. The other thing that she wanted to share with the Board was a letter to Mr. Van Wagenen from Rod Futerfas, Town Attorney dated July 19, 2007. She then read said letter into the record. Mr. Futerfas noted that in looking into the matter the road needed to be improved, and a Road Maintenance Agreement (RMA) needed to be set up with neighbors. He referenced the procedure discussed by Mr. Kelder on the Town taking over the road. She then asked Dennis Van Wagenen if after receiving this letter if he had made any attempts to contact anyone on the road to see if they were willing to do anything? We’ve heard from the Fire Dept. and there are concerns with the condition and safety conditions of the road. Had he contacted all of the other land owners and talked to them about this? This may be the start of something.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that they haven’t talked to too many of them, but everyone has pointed out that they have made several attempts over the last several years and it hasn’t gone anyplace.

 

Chairperson Knudsen noted that this was the Van Wagenen’s application, so as part of the appeals process could be to go to the Assessor’s Office and get the names of everyone that owns property along Cliff Road and right them a letter asking them what they can do or are interested in doing to help? It seems to her that their best interest would be to make sure if they need a fire truck or ambulance that it get there on time and does what it needs to do. Or if they want to build.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that there are 14 residences that are not adequately being provided services that they are paying taxes for. He’s not sure, but they could ask anyone who has a house if there assessment is being reduced because they are not getting the same coverage as everyone else in the Town? He doesn’t think so.

 

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 15

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

Chairperson Knudsen noted that they weren’t here to discuss that. They were here to discuss the Van Wagenen’s appeal. Discussing these concerns with other owners may be something that they can bring to the Board.

 

Dennis Van Wagenen noted that they would contact everyone, but he could pretty much guarantee that they were not going to get the necessary support that it would take to bring that road up to standards. Now they also need to the Town Board to provide support as Mr. Kelder has indicated to carry out that part of it. Now if all those pieces all fit together, fine, because Jon Van Wagenen has been very supportive and in fact he was the one that brought this to his attention about Sages’ Loop that this has been done in the past and he’d love to have it done that way. But, he can’t do it by himself. That’s the point. He has to have the support of everyone else on that road, plus the Town.

 

Chairperson Knudsen suggested that he start with his neighbors to see what kind of support he could get. She asked the Board to keep the Public Hearing open so they didn’t have to make a decision right away because there are a lot of issues outstanding. She also recomeneded that he go to the next Town Board meeting and approach the Town Board. Explain to them the situation.

 

Mr. Striano wanted to add something regarding the taxes. He has grieved his taxes on the bases that he lives on a private road and he was told that he had a luxury of living on a private road and should be taxed more for it.

 

Mrs. Kawalchuk motioned to keep the Hearing open until January. Seconded by Mr. Hudson. No discussion.

Vote:

McKenzie, Alt.  –       Not required to participate             Kawalchuk       –       Yes

Hudson          –       Yes                                     Knudsen –       Yes     

Haugen De Puy   –       Yes                                     Kingston        –        Yes

 

OTHER MATTERS

 

At this time the Board discussed the proposed Zoning Ordinance and the Public Hearings that have been held for them. This discussion resulted in the following letters to the Town Board:

                                

                                

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 17

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

                                MEMO TO:        Pamela Duke, Supervisor,

                                                Town Board Members

 

                                FROM:   Marijane Knudsen, Chairperson,

                                                ZBA

 

                                DATE:           September 24, 2007

 

                                RE:             Proposed Zoning Ordinance       

At the August 2007 meeting all members of the ZBA were given a copy of the proposed Zoning Ordinance.~All members of the Board have read and studied the entire document and attended the public hearings.~A motion was passed at our September meeting to send this letter with the following comments.

 

First and foremost, we unanimously agree Zoning is a guide and is not meant for government to regulate and take away what is lawfully ours.~We are writing this letter to share our thoughts with you because as members of the ZBA we are familiar with the current ordinance. We can, therefore, offer some insight and thoughts that may differ from the public.

 

I must note that as Chairman of the ZBA I was a member of the Code Task Force and can attest to the hours of hard work.~ All meetings were open to the public and the all public in attendance were permitted to express their thoughts, concerns, suggestions and disagreements. Throughout the process, I expressed my concern that I felt the Code Task Force was moving much too quickly. I did voice objections especially to meetings held during afternoon hours.~

 

Since all Board members were in attendance of the public hearing, our concerns also address some of the issues raised at these meetings. We heard concerns with regard to the definition of family, the number of animals permitted, color regulations, screening and cost of compliance.~ Most importantly, we heard and felt the pain of the local resident.~ Our suggestions are as follows:

~~~~~~

The elimination of the definition of Family

~Commercial parcels on Rt. 209 remain commercial

~Change of use should be returned to 5 years–not 2 years with a 1 year extension

~Animal law should remain unchanged–it works

~Cost for projects are excessive.~ Cost prohibitive for local residents

~Eliminate color regulations

~Cluster development regulations need revision

~Sign regulations are excessive and need revision

~Wood stoves, wood burning regulations need to be eliminated

~Elimination of the Planning Board power to grant 10%variance

~Revise Building Inspector duties

~

It is obvious from those in attendance at the public hearing of the concern with the proposed ordinance.~ We respectfully ask each Town Board member to carefully consider our thoughts and years of experience on the Board during your review of this document.~ We understand the need for change.~ We feel the need to preserve for tomorrow must not affect how we live today.~ Thank you for your time.

 

ZBA Minutes                                                                                     Page 17

September 11, 2007

PRE-APPLICATION MEETING

JON VAN WAGENEN–        c/o Dennis Van Wagenen, Cliff Road, 68.2-2-12, discussion on appeal of CEO Denial for building permit based on Highway Superintendent Determination, ‘A’ District

 

                                MEMO TO:        Pamela Duke, Supervisor,

                                                Town Board Members

 

                                FROM:           Marijane Knudsen, Chairperson,

                                                ZBA

 

                                DATE:           October 9, 2007

 

                                RE:             Proposed Zoning Ordinance       

In addition to the ZBA’s points regarding the proposed zoning ordinance raised in letter dated September 24, 2007, we’d like to add the following comments:

 

In reviewing the proposed Zoning Ordinance members found it to be less than user friendly for the everyday Town Resident. The language and placement of sections were difficult to comprehend. We feel that the language should be modified for people to understand without having to consult with legal representation. We also feel that business and residential codes should be clearly separated, so people will be able to clearly and easily locate ordinances that apply to their individual circumstances.

 

We thank you for your time and consideration.

 

Mr. Hudson motioned to adjourn seconded by Mrs. Kawalchuk. No discussion. All members in favor.

 

As there was no further business to discuss, Chairperson Knudsen adjourned the meeting at 8:30 PM.      

 

                                                                Respectfully submitted,

                                                                

 

                                                                Rebecca Paddock Stange, Secretary